Thursday, January 3, 2008

A group is a loop with goop eating soup(Friday's Post).

I found a topic about groups. Which got me started thinking.

I've never grouped with anyone other than wulfa and sib, and I've never raided. Which makes me an expert ;P on how groups and raids should be setup! Muahahahhaha.

For the perfect group:

Tank: Bear tank(I likes)
Healer: Resto Shaman(Mostly for the dual totems)

DPS: BM Hunter

Utility/DPS: Enh Shaman

Utility/DPS: Cat

My idea for this is:

Lots of melee dps around the mob(Pet/bear/cat/enh shaman). This means they get to share the windfury totem and gain benifits from the bear tanks fairie fire, and from the pets group attack buff(I don't know what it is called). Also not sure if fairie fire stacks but if it does then the cat tosses it too and whee off to the races.

Also the crowded melee means that Resto shaman gets to spread lots of chain heals around.

The only thing I don't like.... low on CC. If "moar CC PLS" then swap the cat for another hunter(SV or BM), or maybe a Demonology lock. (can rogue's CC decently? if so then get one).

I'm biased against casters.


For ZA Bear fight! All I know is he's a bear and he's a troll. This is me-the-never-raided making up a 25man raid group out of thin air. In my crowded fantasy world:

Group1(tank bear aspect):
Bear tank
Enh Shammy
Arms Warrior

Resto Druid(raid healer)

Group2(tank troll aspect):
Protection Warrior

Retribution Paladin

Holy Paladin(Group1 Tank healer)
Holy Paladin(Group2 Tank healer)
Priest(Backup tank healer)
Shadow Priest
Elemental Shaman

Survival Hunter
Demonology Warlock
Mage(on CC duty primarily/damage 2ndarily)

Group5(magic dps):
Affliction Lock
Destro lock(shadow specced)
Shadow priest
Elemental Shaman

Anyways I'd love feedback about how far off I was(on the raid)

p.s. Ding 34!
and 1/2 to 35!

p.s.s. Guess who figured out how to take screenshots on his macbook.

p.s.s.s. Hint: he's green

Bleh just found out that ZA is 10 man not 25. So pretend my above group is a kara group or something.


Trollin' said...

I dunno. I think I'm going to be difficult specifically because of your anti-caster policy... =P

Perfect Group:
Prot Pally
Holy Pally
Shadow Priest
Frost Mage
Felgaurd Lock

See.... Everybody has mana. It's like everyone is a caster!

Anonymous said...

shift/apple/3 (or whatever the technical terms are)

but that only drops 'em onto your desktop...I need to recheck the one that'll put 'em into a folder.

Whenever I play on my macbook I miss out on a lot of good screenies! *cough* /beg *cough*

In regards to the raiding...I just raid kara and have done gruuls once so I'm not quite sure. I basically ignore who's there and do what I'm told. Trap this, MD on that guy, feign, etc.

klaki said...

I personally don't think there is a perfect group. Different situations call for different people.

I prefer a druid tank, unless the group lacks crowd control, then I would want a prot pally to tank, since prot pallys are really good at holding aggro on multiple mobs.

As far as healers go, we all know Holy Pallys are the most efficient Main Tank Healers right now. However, each healer has their pros and cons. Druids have best HoTs, Shammys have best group heal plus totems, Priests have largest range of healing options.

As far as DPS goes, BM Hunters and Rogues should top your lists, but that doesn't mean they should be your first choice. Like healers, certain classes are better choices in certain situations.

For CC, it depends where you are. Hunters and Priests are best for Kara CC, while Mages (I prefer sheeping) are very good in most other instances (which contain Humanoids). Rogues have SAP, but can't SAP in combat.

Shadow Priests are great when you have a group of casters for their group heal and mana gain.

If I was creating a general (most instances) group, it would consist of:

Druid (Tank)
Holy Pally (Healer)
Mage (DPS and CC)
BM Hunter (DPS and CC)
Afflict Lock (DPS and CC)

Reasoning is this... Druids are great tanks (high HP and armor). Pallys are very efficient healers, can bubble, and can take a beating. Mages do good DPS (either Fire or Frost) and can sheep. Hunter does good DPS, traps, pet, MD. Afflic Locks are great for boss fights. Pets for different situations and DoTs DoTs and more DoTs!

Jabari said...

Couple of notes:

- ZA is 10-man, not 25 ;)

- In building a 25-man raid, there are a few things to consider:
For selecting class/spec:
Are all your necessary buffs covered? Are all your necessary debuffs covered?

For grouping:
You'll organize the groups much better by setting up groups by the specific powerful buffs. You want a "Windfury group", as that's what the group is built around. What is a "cc group" built around? (demo-lock, mage, boomkin, sv hunter, rogue has ZERO synergy...)

I'll throw up a post or two today about it if I can get some time - it's a fun exercise. :)

Dammerung said...

The CC group was built around crowd control classes. At the last minute last night I swapped Mage#2(sheep) for Rogue(sap) in an attempt to be varied.

My thought process for that group went like this:

Demo-lock(pet can off tank for 3 seconds if needbe + fearyoyo + seduce if needbe)
Boomkin(hybernate + cyclone)
SV hunter(traps traps)

The idea behind this group is that it would be focused mainly on random adds and would have a lot of DPS to burn down anything that can't be chain sheep/trapped.

I tried to build the tanking groups with a lot of synergy in buffs(windfury/shaman20 yard damage buff/pet damage buff/arms warrior debuff/fairie fire)
+ 1 raid healer each to help watch hps of the melee guys.(bleh boomkin in group 2 was supposed to be a raid healer not a boomkin)

The healer group I had two main healers(one for each main tank) and another one backing them up, I gave them an ele shaman because I wanted them to have the totems but I didn't need another healer. And a shadow priest because more mana regen isn't bad.

The last group would be stacking CoElements and CoShadow and that Ele shaman totem and mana totem+shadow priest.

Anyways that was my reasoning. The little bit that it was.

Jabari said...

Remember that some things are group-specific buffs (BattleShout, Unleashed Rage), and some are mob-specific debuffs (CoS, EW).

The Curse of Shadows Warlock doesn't have to be in the same group as the Shadowpriest (and shouldn't be, as they should be darkpacting for mana), but the Rogue/DPS Warrior/Enh Shaman all need to be be in the same group to share the buffs. The Shadowpriest gets the CoS benefit even if it's in a separate group than the CoS caster.

The SV hunter and Rogue get exactly zero benifit from the moonkin, so they need to be in different groups.

Dammerung said...


I had been thinking that debufs like CoS only worked for people in your party. Not sure why I thought that.

Perhaps this then:


Bear tank
Bear tank2
Enh Shammy(using GoA totem for bears)
Retribution Paladin
MM Hunter

Group2(windfury totem/warrior shout/pet and shammy crit buffs):
Enh Shammy
Arms Warrior

Holy Paladin(Group1 Tank healer)
Holy Paladin(Group2 Tank healer)
Priest(Backup tank healer)
Shadow Priest
Resto Shaman(replacing the old group2 boomkin)

Group4(still lacking synergy supposed to handle adds):
Affliction Lock
Resto Druid(add-tank-healer)
Protection Paladin(tank adds)
Survival Hunter
Shadow Priest(pally tanks need mana?)

Group5(magic damage via crits):
Destro lock(shadow specced)
Mage(on CC duty primarily/damage 2ndarily)
Elemental Shaman(casting crit totem)

Dammerung said...

Yeah I left the priest with the lock but I didn't have anywhere to put the lock.

Jabari said...

That one is much, much better. :)

Quick recommendation: Swap the Lock with the Ret Paladin, for three reasons:

- Imp Blood Pact buff for tanks
- Ret Pali needs mana.
- Ret Pali (Sanctity Aura) + Prot Pali = infinite threat.

Will try to work out how I'd set it up later.

Kinzlayer said...

tbh, this will sound stupid but the perfect group is really the group that gets the job done. There are times when on a Mag fight that the raid will only have 2 warlocks available... so that just means those warlocks better not be on the dps charts til the channelers are dead and Mag is out. There are minimal requirements of group make-up for most fights but generally you'll find that the "perfect group" is one that adapt well and accomplish the task at hand.

Jabari said...


That's true enough (and not stupid at all *chuckle*)

I think what I'm looking at is doing little things to squeeze out that extra bit of performance from the raid.

For example: BRK's guild is very physical-damage heavy - tons of cat druids, rogues, and hunters. They would be extremely well served to get an Enhancement Shaman, and to convert one of their hunters to SV for Expose Weakness. Those two things would probably push their raid DPS by 700. That's an entire extra DPSer!

I don't want to force spec on particular people, of course, but that (respeccing to SV) should be mentioned to their hunters, at least.

Dammerung said...

Very very true. Lemme clarify: My group(the non-raid) is about my idea of what would be the most comfortable. Forexample: I don't like mages, they look funny. I like lots of physical damage... I'm more usefull(windfury increases a warriors dps by a lot %'s wise).

As for my raid... I wanted to play with the theorycrafting...and since I don't know squat about high end stuff like "wear 10 agi and gain a giant hamster" I figured I would play with creating a balanced raid group that would work efficiantly.

Within a guild... all I would care about really is: Are you a team player and can you follow directions and play your class.

Beyond that everything is way too dependant upon which boss you are fighting. Like that Dragonhawk? boss where mages can't cast for a whole phase(I love you I love you I love you).

Jabari said...

Don't know if this is still alive, but I finalized my "batting order" for that lineup: